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Case then.................Ingersoll now

12K views 50 replies 15 participants last post by  Hydriv 
#1 ·
In 1976, Case offered the customer the following choice of tractors

210 gear transmission

220 Hy driv

222 Hy driv

224 Hy driv

444 Hy driv big wheel

446 Hy driv big wheel

A total of six models and 3 HP ratings.

Today Eastman offers

3018 Hy driv

3021 Hy driv

3023 Hy driv

4018 Hy driv

4021 Hy driv

4023 Hy driv

Once again 6 models and 3 HP ratings

In addition, thanks to a foot pedal that controls speed but not direction, these models were created and added to the line

4218 Hy driv

4221 Hy driv

4223 PS

Power Steering is available for all 21 and23 HP models but not the 18 HP models

Those two options add 6 more models to the lineup. From the standpoint of a dealer, that's a huge investment in capital and showroom floor space if he was to display each one. At bare minimum, he would need to display one 3000 model and one 4000 to at least let the customer plunk his butt into the seat. In truth, that isn't a lot to ask of a bona fide dealer.....providing the company was actually providing the sales support that other manufacturers supply. When Eastman fails to produce a sales brochure as a hand out to customers that show the entire line along with the available attachments and options, then that puts a heavy burden on any dealer. Customers are expecting to walk in the door, see the tractor on the floor and then walk out with a colour brochure and a quote. So.... let's look at the reality of a quote, shall we?

A 3018 or 4018 is going to cost you $7, 419.00 just for the basic tractor that does nothing but tug a lawn roller or garden cart. Oh....you want to cut grass do you? OK....that will cost you another $1,680.00 to add a 44" side discharge deck but..........if you go for a 48" deck.......we'll give that to you for ten bucks LESS. Someone needs to explain how that is possible.. A wider deck uses more steel, longer blades and a longer drive belt. In any event, this basic grass cutter will set you back $9099.00. Uh... excuse me but since it does snow in this area, would you like to super-size your order with a snocaster? Yes? Well no problem. A 48" model will add $1961.00 to your price, bringing it to $11,060.00.. Tell me, do you have a large veggie garden sir? You do?.... Well then, you should consider adding a sleeve hitch ($535.00), rear PTO Kit ($816.00), wheel weight kit ($261.00), tire chains ($163.00), Flow Control Valve ($663.000 and a set of suitcase weights for the front ($583.00) so that you have all then necessary ingredients to properly support the hydraulic tiller ($1749.00).

What's that you say? Your yard gets a lot of leaves every fall? Well then, I didn't realize that your property was that large so perhaps you should consider a HydraVac ($2,154.00) instead of the HydraBagger ($2,320.00). Of course, with the HydraVac, you will also need the DC1000 Dump Cart (1,007.00) . By rights, I should be selling you the 60 inch deck ($2,730.00) instead of the 48" deck but for some reason beyond my comprehension, the big deck does not support either Hydra systems. Boggles the mind, does it not... since the 60 " deck is touted as being the COMMERCIAL deck and many competing mowers in the commercial market do offer grass catching systems.

Where are we on price, you ask? Hmmm. let me see. You decided on the 4018 with a 48" deck, snocaster, wheel weight kit, rear PTO kit, Flow Control Kit, tire chains, sleeve hitch, tiller, suitcase weights, dump cart and HydraVac.....Hmmm did I forget anything? Nah... I don't think so. The price comes out to a mere $18,991.00 less the $200.00 trade-in value for your John Deer L120. Of course, there is the little matter of sales tax on that figure of 8% which adds $1,503.28 to the total making it $20,294.28.

Now...can we upgrade you to our top model with 23 HP, foot operated speed control and... power steering? How about we just make a comparison for the fun of it and then you can think on it?

4223 ............................................9,534.00
Power Steering............................... 589.00
3 point hitch.................................... 991.00
Sleeve Hitch adapter......................... 275.00
Rear PTO kit HP-42..............................848.00
Flow Control kit.....................................663.00
Tire Chains............................................ 163.00
Wheel weights ......cast iron set of 4........ 484.00
Suitcase weight kit ....................................583.00

Total for tractor....................................14,130.00

May I remind you that the tractor is still just a tractor at that price but it will tow a trailer or other stuff in style.

Snocaster..................................................1,961.00
Tiller.........................................................1,749.00
48" deck....................................................1,670.00
HydraVac....................................................2,154.00
Dump Cart................................................. 1,007.00

Total for attachments........................$8,541.00

Grand total............................................$22,671.00

8% Tax...................................................$1,813.68

Bottom Line.................................... $24,484.68

Don't forget.... We'll knock off $200.00 plus 8% if you trade in your Deere.

And if you need a winter cab that isn't made of steel anymore.... then add another $1,087.00 plus tax.

Or how about a rough cut 48" tow behind mower for that back field? It's a bargain at $3,650.00........plus tax, of course.

And you wonder why Ingersoll doesn't sell?
 
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#27 ·
The only way I see it turning around for our beloved Case/Ingy/Colts is for J.I. Case (Case/IH) to re-acquire the line, add some models (like the mentioned diesel 4x4 mentiond prior) and market it properly. That would instantanesouly bring back the brand recognition HyDriv mentioned.

I like Kubota as well and I also own a tractor that's Green & Yellow and like that too (they all have good and bad points, in my opinion). However, if given the choice between a similarily priced JD, Kubota or CASE/IH with similar features, I'd take the CASE!

Will probably never happen though and that is ashame!
 
#28 ·
Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. Case sold the division in 1983 and moved on. Next year will mark the 30th Anniversary of this transaction. That's how long the line has been badly abused through mismanagement. I would agree that Case could turn that around in perhaps two years solely on the basis of the corporate name. I don't think any other company could do that. At least, not that fast. And the thing is, Case would not have to spend millions of dollars in advertising either. just put the tractors in Case/IH and Case/New Holland dealerships, print new Tractor Planning Guides like they used to and sales would take off.

But... why would they bother? They already have a product line to sell.
 
#29 ·
Case is now owned by Fiat who, in my opinion has never improved any AG type company that they have purchased in North America (A-C and Heston for instance). They have already got rid of everything under 50 HP on the Case side and the Boomers on the NH side. Partially because of govt. subsidies of ethanol and increased demand in Russia and South America their big ag sales are going well. My experiance has been that when big stuff is selling well, they don't pay much attention to home owner stuff.
 
#30 ·
I like Kubota as well and I also own a tractor that's Green & Yellow and like that too (they all have good and bad points, in my opinion). !
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#31 ·
I do not post comments because I hate to type and do not really like computers , but would like to
add some comments on this subject.

My first Case was a 155 (New/ Late 60's). That was followed by a bunch Case iron .... from a 108 to a 4016PS(1990's)

Currently have 2 ..both reworked as close to new as I can get them (448 and the 4016PS). Thank you , Bryan.

The first green machine was a 420 (1984). That was followed by several more green tractors. Green iron now
consists of a x728 and an x360.

I live in eastern Nebraska. Good farming country. Lot of dealers around here , but , there has been
zero Case or Ingy dealership representation (lawn and garden) for the past 20 years. The only thing that shows
up on CL is worn out junk. 99% of folks around here have never heard of Case or Ingy ( do they make air compressors ?)

The only thing that kept me in the Case world was Bryan. Excelent service and help.

Considering the vast differences in features ( the Deere's win going away ) , operating ease , parts availability
and the unsure future of Ingersoll, the only option left is to close the book on Case/Ingy.
 
#32 ·
Gs 446 said:
The only way I see it turning around for our beloved Case/Ingy/Colts is for J.I. Case (Case/IH) to re-acquire the line, add some models (like the mentioned diesel 4x4 mentiond prior) and market it properly. That would instantanesouly bring back the brand recognition HyDriv mentioned.

I like Kubota as well and I also own a tractor that's Green & Yellow and like that too (they all have good and bad points, in my opinion). However, if given the choice between a similarily priced JD, Kubota or CASE/IH with similar features, I'd take the CASE!

Will probably never happen though and that is ashame!
I agree with this wholeheartily and have said as much on MTF - barring an association with a major tractor manufacturer Ingersoll is a dead duck.

I knew a dealer years ago that sold Power Kings, he told me he was going to drop them (they have the same big rims that Case/Ingy used) when I asked him why he said "people are afraid of them - they can't associate them with any known tractor so I have the hardest time selling them, its a shame they have the Kohler K and are built like a tank."

John Deere could paint a piece of s.... green and yellow carve their name into the side of it and people would buy it - ah yes the power of marketing the same colors over all them years.

It would be helpful if the dealers here could persuade a rep from Ingersoll to come here and give us an update on what is happening on there end... new products, updates, plans etc., instead of having all of this speculation on these forums from their most loyal fans.

One of our problems is the emotional value we place on these machines, we may be attached to our beloved brand but to CEO's and bean counters they could care less, its strictly business to them.
 
#33 ·
Caseman2 said:
It would be helpful if the dealers here could persuade a rep from Ingersoll to come here and give us an update on what is happening on there end... new products, updates, plans etc., instead of having all of this speculation on these forums from their most loyal fans.
Frank.... do you honestly think that Eastman would do that? What would be their motivation? Let's be realistic. We have a company that does next to zero in the way of media advertising. I am not aware of them going to any trade shows nor any public tractor shows. They don't have a website to speak of. There is no information readily available to the public that describes the tractor models they currently produce. There is no published specification sheet that gives the dimensions of the tractors or any of the features. I think that we have it all wrong about their marketing strategy.

Here's how it works. If you want to become the proud owner of a new Eastman/Ingersoll, then you have to know someone who already has one. Forget about going to someone with an Ingersoll made before Eastman came along in 2005. That owner must be able to swear that he has known you for at least 5 years because you have to fill out an extensive "Permission to own an Ingersoll" application. Aside from that owner agreeing to vouch for your character when it comes to OPE, you must also get four other references from people such as your clergyman, your lawyer, your doctor, your psychiatrist, your dentist etc and the local Chief of Police. Naturally, you must tell Eastman who your birth parents were and how long you have been a citizen. Once you have filled out every detail of your personal life on this 20 page application and had it sworn in front of a Notary Public, then Eastman will reveal the name and address of the closest dealer to where you live.

You will be given a special password and details of how to perform the secret handshake with the dealer before being allowed to even view a four year old colour brochure. Whatever you do, do not discuss prices during your talk with the dealer. The entire process is recorded by hidden camera with a live feed back to the plant in Maine. This is one of those situations whereby if you have to ASK the price, then it is blatantly obvious that you cannot afford an Eastman/Ingersoll and your interview is instantly ended. Don't even think of re-applying. You get one chance only to become a member of this exclusive club of elite individuals.

None of this should come as a surprise. Many private tennis clubs, golf & country clubs have waiting lists that are sometimes years in length. There's a rumour that Eastman is thinking about charging an initiation fee followed by an annual ownership fee so if anyone on this forum is thinking about owning a new Eastman/Ingersoll, they might want to get their application rolling. Of course, your major hurdle will be in finding someone who actually owns one now and has known you for the required five years. In the event that you do qualify for ownership, your tractor will come with a special gold-tone plastic plaque on the dash with your name engraved on it. You will also be assigned a time and date for a tour of the Eastman facility to see where your tractor was assembled and you get to have lunch in the cafeteria with the two guys who built your tractor. The menu will consist of french fried potatoes and two patties of baked Spam as well as your choice of coffee, tea or milk. Dessert will be either Jello, ice cream or pudding.

This will be followed by a photo session with Nick, the president of Eastman who will shake your hand. You will be given at least three 4 x 6 black and white Polaroids to commemorate this occasion and place lovingly in your family album.

So..... no way will anyone from Eastman/Ingersoll be coming on this site to explain anything about the secret society.
 
#36 ·
Hydriv said:
Caseman2 said:
This will be followed by a photo session with Nick, the president of Eastman who will shake your hand. You will be given at least three 4 x 6 black and white Polaroids to commemorate this occasion and place lovingly in your family album.
^ :sidelaugh: While I appreciate the wry humor in this tongue in cheek epistle, there is a shortcut method.
Call Brian @ Salem and he`ll arrange for a new Ingersoll to be shipped to your door. :wave:
 
#37 ·
Hydriv said:
Caseman2 said:
It would be helpful if the dealers here could persuade a rep from Ingersoll to come here and give us an update on what is happening on there end... new products, updates, plans etc., instead of having all of this speculation on these forums from their most loyal fans.
Frank.... do you honestly think that Eastman would do that? ...
Yes I do... if they were healthy they would, if they have nothing to report as we suspect then they won't touch these forums with a 10 foot pole.

However, in their defense they may be just treading water until they see what happens to the economy, they are a small company with limited resourses and there probaly are not that many $7000 to $10,000 dollar tractors being sold by any of the manufacturers.
 
#38 ·
It's seems more and more that tractor dealerships are selling multiple brands.. In my area the Case/IH dealer which recently switched to AG-CO has been selling NEW Kubota, Scagg, CC, and a couple other brands along with Stihl etc for years.. I'm no business man but instead of the "box store" which doesn't seem viable,, why couldn't they (Ingersoll/Eastman) be more commonly offered at farm/commercial dealerships and marketed more as a commercial or heavy duty GT which it is.. Again just thinking..maybe that's my problem. The more I read I'm not sure why Eastman keeps building them it's like a slow drawn out death
 
#39 ·
Caseman2 said:
Hydriv said:
Caseman2 said:
It would be helpful if the dealers here could persuade a rep from Ingersoll to come here and give us an update on what is happening on there end... new products, updates, plans etc., instead of having all of this speculation on these forums from their most loyal fans.
Frank.... do you honestly think that Eastman would do that? ...
Yes I do... if they were healthy they would, if they have nothing to report as we suspect then they won't touch these forums with a 10 foot pole.

However, in their defense they may be just treading water until they see what happens to the economy, they are a small company with limited resourses and there probaly are not that many $7000 to $10,000 dollar tractors being sold by any of the manufacturers.
I think that Eastman is healthy but they are a small business compared to Deere or MTD or even Dixon who came out with their own line of tractors a year or two ago. At least, Dixon had some recognition with the public. Ingersoll has next to no recognition. Secondly, almost all of the people who populate forums like this one are not in the market for a $10,000.00 plus machine to cut their grass. If Eastman came to this forum, they'd be lucky to sell two tractors and that applies to any other forum out there.

Tread water? All that does is delay the drowning in the hopes of a rescue. I am not opening any political door here so let's not go there. The economic woes of the USA will not be solved by a change in the Presidency. Romney cannot fix what is happening in Italy, Greece or Spain and the US is still locked into expensive wars that are draining the coffers of the country. Everyone is looking for a miracle but this is real life, not the movies. You don't sell tractors by sitting on your hands and that's what Eastman is doing today and has been doing since they bought the company. Fix the damn website, print some brochures, tell people that the Lo Pro tractor is back in production, get your product to trade shows and tractor shows and place some key ads in popular magazines. Start to build public awareness instead of hiding in the dark shivering like a frightened child. All these things are possible providing the money is there along with the will to carry them out. I see no signs of either.
 
#40 ·
75case444 said:
It's seems more and more that tractor dealerships are selling multiple brands.. In my area the Case/IH dealer which recently switched to AG-CO has been selling NEW Kubota, Scagg, CC, and a couple other brands along with Stihl etc for years.. I'm no business man but instead of the "box store" which doesn't seem viable,, why couldn't they (Ingersoll/Eastman) be more commonly offered at farm/commercial dealerships and marketed more as a commercial or heavy duty GT which it is.. Again just thinking..maybe that's my problem. The more I read I'm not sure why Eastman keeps building them it's like a slow drawn out death
Why would any OPE dealer bother taking on a line of tractors that is not properly supported by the company that makes them? Solve that problem.
 
#41 ·
My Uncle's 446 (now my 446) was purchased from a dealer that sold many different brands of tractors, he just liked the Case the best. This dealer sold John Deere, Case and others.

I think it was Called "Accredited Equipment, sales & Service" or something like that, but they went out of business years ago. Funny, in the documentation my uncle gave me, he had two hand-written letters to Case asking who he could take the tractor to for service when Accredited went out of business.

I wonder if he got better support from Case/Ingersoll? :sidelaugh:
 
#42 ·
It would mainly depend on the date of the letters if they were addressed to Case.

Case dealers were still involved with the garden tractor line at least until 1985. Some dealers continued on by becoming an Ingersoll dealer. Had he written that letter in the late 80's before the company was sold to the Rothenberger Group, then I'd say that he would have received a quick reply with a list of places close to him. What would have happened after Rothenberger was in charge is hard to say but there were far more dealers available in the early 90's than there are today. The closer you get to 2004, the worse it becomes and I don't believe that it has got better since then, either. We keep hearing about more dealers falling by the wayside for one reason or another.
 
#43 ·
I certainly do not believe that the economy is fixed but in the tractor business, 2011 and the first half of 2012 have been very good years. It seems that the baby boomers are getting their toys ( what would you call a BX25 TLB going to someone with 2 acres) in line before they retire. If a better tractor market is what Eastman is waiting for, now is the time!
 
#44 ·
The state of the economy is often judged by the figures showing how many people are out of work. Are those numbers perfect? No they are not but.. the latest numbers are not what you would call encouraging. Does anyone believe that we don't have a long way to go to get back to where we were before 9/11?
 
#45 ·
Hydriv said:
The state of the economy is often judged by the figures showing how many people are out of work. Are those numbers perfect? No they are not but.. the latest numbers are not what you would call encouraging. Does anyone believe that we don't have a long way to go to get back to where we were before 9/11?
There is a very real potential that we may never return to where we were pre 9/11. I hope I am wrong, of course. :usa:
 
#46 ·
I got some inside info... Eastman wanted to keep the company in Winneconnee, WI but no State or local governments would give them a reason to or any incentive to stay. Maine gave them big tax breaks and low interest loans to add on to their building and provide their State with 70 more manufacturing jobs.
 
#48 ·
Because of the political nature of part of your post, I have removed that section for the moment and placed in the Team forum for discussion.

I don't know the source of your information about Eastman's plans but they certainly differ from what I was told at the time.

Eastman already had a plant back east in 2004 when they first looked at buying Ingersoll's assets. That's where they were manufacturing the Hovermower's. They were already outgrowing that facility and were on the lookout for larger premises. Apparently, the plant they are in now was already constructed but empty.

Yes... there were incentives given to entice Eastman to move their operation to that plant but it was far too large for just the Hovermower division. The only way to justify the square footage was to consolidate both companies under a single roof. This made economic sense on many fronts. One plant to heat, maintain and pay taxes on. I don't even know if Ingersoll owned the Winneconne plant or not ... or if they did, whether it was part of the deal with Eastman.
Either way, it was an old facility and likely came with age related issues. As I understand it, the Maine plant was fairly new.

Having all your eggs in a single basket makes it much easier to take care of them because they are in your sight all the time. There is no need for duplicate staff either, which is another cost saving. Consolidation also eliminates the need for top brass to fly from head office to the branch plant. More savings. Local wage rates MAY have played a part as well. I don't know that for sure but that is often a major incentive.

State government works with local government to attract businesses to their area because people without jobs don't pay taxes and are often a burden to government in several ways. It's done all the time. Get the business here, get them up and operating and then pray that they stick around. Governments that create jobs often get to stay in office for another term.

Another major factor for Eastman to get out of Dodge may have been the fact that Ingersoll had not paid quite a few of the local subcontractors that had been making parts. Whether any of these businesses saw a dime from the buyout is not something I am privy to. However, when a company named Ingersoll screws you for thousands of dollars, how anxious would you be to get into bed with another company called Ingersoll? As always, there is much more to this story than will be revealed on this forum.
 
#49 ·
I don't know if this fits this fits topic or not but I would like to throw this out. How much of the tractors' high cost is related to lower buying power on components due to low sales? When you get right down to it, they buy most of the high dollar components. Engines, hydraulic components, wheels, tires, headlights, knobs, cables, steering wheels, lovejoys, steering joints, switches, electric clutches and belts are all outsourced. Even the sheet metal for the frame, fenders and hood that I'm assuming that they make would be cheaper if they were buying more. It seems that low numbers lead to higher cost which leads to lower numbers. If they moved to Maine for cheaper operating cost it was offset by higher component pricing. Their are a few components that I worry about. What happens when the drive motor manufacturer decides that they don't sell enough of that model to justify producing it? What about the rear end? I don't know if they buy the whole thing or buy the castings and do the machining themselves but either way the source has to make enough for it to be profitable.
 
#50 ·
My info is from a retired employee of Colt/Case/Ingersoll. So I'm sure he was not fully informed on everything either.
Tom hit on another thing I also heard and that's the Union rates were to high and unsustainable, which is in-part why Ingersoll went bankrupt. They lost to much control over benefits and wages to the Union and well... look how the Union benefited Winneconnee's Local and State economy. Gone.
Can you tell I'm not a fan of Unions. lol They have there place if properly managed.

A company can only be successful if it has control over itself. A big Union can be larger then the company it represents and be detrimental to its survival by forcing up prices, fees, unsustainable contracts and using or forcing political leverage to get there way. As production goes down the contracts can no longer be full-filled and someone looses, the workers or the suppliers, (probably why suppliers weren't getting paid.) We have laws to protect the workers already. We don't need a Union to make decisions for a Company it represents or force people into joining when they don't share the same political belief's of the Union.
I'm sure a lot of people would rather take a cut in pay or benefits than loose their jobs completely.
 
#51 ·
Before we go blaming the Unions for the demise of Ingersoll Tractor, please tell me this. Are you suggesting that John Deere and MTD have managed to keep the unions out of their operations?

If the answer is no...then all three companies were on a level playing field because I'm sure that the Union would be looking for wage and benefit parity with similar operations. While the Union seems like a convenient scapegoat, the fact remains that the Rothenberger Group did little to no advertising during the time they owned the company and the lack of public awareness of the Ingersoll name contributed greatly to the loss of sales and subsequently, the loss of dealers because they couldn't sell the tractors they had in their inventory. We are still seeing that today. It has been reported on this forum along with photos of NOS tractors.
 
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