Electrical troubleshooting, any advice?
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    Senior Member Dan444's Avatar
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    Electrical troubleshooting, any advice?

    Making progress on my 76 444. Attempted to start today, stone dead.
    Fuse is not popped. Ignition is from running 79 444. Neutral safety is not wired up. I do not know about a pto, but I suspect yes it had one once. I see no evidence though.


    With the key on I jumped direct from the battery to starter and the engine turned over, slowly though. Ruled out starter. No spark at plug, not sure there is supposed to be.


    Borrowed solenoid from running 79 444, no luck.
    Borrowed battery positive wire, no luck.
    Clamped jumper cable to negative battery and other end to metal piece solenoid mounts on. Nothing.
    Busted out battery charger, battery at 97%.
    Iím seeing 12.6 volts with leads on positive solenoid pole and other on ignition yellow wire at ignition prong, key off. I expect this.
    Turning the key to lights, I expect to see 12.6 . I see around 1 volt and do not know why. Turning key to run position, I see about the same on the red ignition wire. I would think this should be 12 on all of them? I would be swearing the ignition needs replacing right now but I know itís good.


    I took a reading I donít seem to follow. Iím seeing 12 volts with leads on positive solenoid pole and other on starter main, key off. I assumed this would not be 12 until key was turned. Voltage is flowing through the solenoid, though itís supposed to be open?


    Any suggestions what to check next? Iím stumped at the moment.

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    I think, I'd start from square one with a test light?

    First thing I'd do is make sure I have a nice clean ground from Battery to motor frame.

    Then, with a test light, alligator clip on Batt negative, turn key on to run. Stick needle on coil positive post, does light go on? If so, you now have power to coil.

    Next, Test the positive side of the small post starter solenoid. With needle on negative solenoid small post, turn key to start mode, does the light go on? If so, you have power going to solenoid to energize the coil.

    Next, swap the alligator clamp of test light to batt positive. key off, stick the needle on negative post of solenoid, does light go on, or stays off? Assuming it goes on, everything is fine, if it doesn't go on, you have no ground, more then likely because of a safety switch.

    Alligator clip to batt negative, stick needle onto the solenoid large post that goes from solenoid to starter, turn key to start, and when in that position, does the light go on? It should if all other things worked out, and starter should spin over.

    Let's check points? with test light alligator clip on coil positive, stick needle onto coil negative,, turn key to start mode, and every time points close, light should come on, and go off as points open. This is also a way of checking your points gap/timing. But, to do this, pull the spark plug out, Key off, alligator clip on coil negative, and needle stuck onto batt positive. As you turn the flywheel, when points close, light goes on, when points open, light goes off. (Saves using a feeler gauge, also assumes your points aren't pitted).

    In all tests, when I say light goes on, it means full light, and not just a dim light,,,
    Last edited by Lionel; 05-25-2020 at 10:44 PM.

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    Senior Member Dan444's Avatar
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    Thanks thanks thanks Lionel. I had a few minutes to get back to this today. I removed both my solenoids and tested out of the tractor. The one from my running case tested fine. The non running case failed.

    i don’t have a test light but I put my voltmeter on ohms and performed the tests. See answers below in RED


    First thing I'd do is make sure I have a nice clean ground from Battery to motor frame.

    Checked this using ohm. Got a nice loud beep from battery neg to frame.


    Then, with a test light, alligator clip on Batt negative, turn key on to run. Stick needle on coil positive post, does light go on? If so, you now have power to coil.

    Did this but assumed you meant key to start. Failed With key on ignition, passed with key on start. Very nice audible beep.

    Next, Test the positive side of the small post starter solenoid. With needle on negative solenoid small post, turn key to start mode, does the light go on? If so, you have power going to solenoid to energize the coil.

    This test worked with key off as well as key ignition position. Did not work on start. Is this supposed to happen? Doesn’t feel quite right.


    Next, swap the alligator clamp of test light to batt positive. key off, stick the needle on negative post of solenoid, does light go on, or stays off? Assuming it goes on, everything is fine, if it doesn't go on, you have no ground, more then likely because of a safety switch.

    this one failed. I have a black wire coming up from underneath battery area I assume is neutral safety. I performed the test with it hooked to the small negative solenoid post, as well as it not being connected. Results are the same, no audible beep. In my running 444, this black wire which is likely the neutral start, is not connected to anything. The tractor runs fine without this wire. I’m not sure how to resolve this one? Seems this may be it and I’m close.

    Alligator clip to batt negative, stick needle onto the solenoid large post that goes from solenoid to starter, turn key to start, and when in that position, does the light go on? It should if all other things worked out, and starter should spin over.

    Did not not turn over.... I did not check points yet. When I get it to turn over, I’ll check.

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    Senior Member Dan444's Avatar
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    Success on getting it to turn over! I realized that my running 444 is working due to the negative small solenoid post being jumped direct to ground. This apparently bypasses the neutral safety switch. I wired this the same way. I found an electrical manual, not just wiring diagram, and in troubleshooting engine won’t turn over or click check ammeter, along with neutral safety. Neutral safety was jumped so that left ammeter. Pulled the wires and stuck them together and the engine turned over. Very happy. But.... no spark. Or at least not one I could see. I’m going to check points now and hopefully this is it. The plug looks brand new so don’t think it’s the plug. Lionel... THANKS for helping get me through this hurdle.

    For checking points, I put the leads on pos and neg coil with key off I got a big loud BEEP. Key to start no change.

    Points appear closed but I am not certain. sadly my feeler gauge is nowhere to be found. I recall long ago a trick to use a piece of sandpaper, wedge between the points and hope you got it close. If my feeler gauge doesn’t show up, my 220 grit sandpaper is going to take on another task...
    Last edited by Dan444; 05-27-2020 at 04:40 PM.

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    Dan

    This is a problem,,
    Then, with a test light, alligator clip on Batt negative, turn key on to run. Stick needle on coil positive post, does light go on? If so, you now have power to coil.

    Did this but assumed you meant key to start. Failed With key on ignition, (I assume you mean in run mode) passed with key on start. Very nice audible beep.

    You should have power to coil, in both run mode, and in start mode. Something's not correct with your wiring,, ignition switch?
    No power to coil, no spark either,, so you'll need to address this first,,
    Last edited by Lionel; 05-27-2020 at 07:50 PM.

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    Once you have the above resolved, (I don't typically use an OHM meter for this, but maybe it responds fast enough, just not sure about this one)

    For checking points, I put the leads on pos and neg coil with key off I got a big loud BEEP. Key to start no change. What we are testing here, is to see if the points open and close. When they close, ground is made. Just remove the wire that comes from the points, (Off the coil) and test at end of wire that wire, or better yet, I normally test on the back side of the points. When closed, ground circuit is made, when open, no ground circuit. Instead of going to coil positive and wondering if you have an ignition problem, stick the other end of ohm meter, direct to bat positive. Every time the points come around, you should see your meter show ground and then none as points open.

    Points appear closed but I am not certain. sadly my feeler gauge is nowhere to be found. I recall long ago a trick to use a piece of sandpaper, wedge between the points and hope you got it close. If my feeler gauge doesn’t show up, my 220 grit sandpaper is going to take on another task...

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    Replace the Ignition switch with a OEM Ingersoll one, they are pretty cheap and will rule that out. It is pretty common that they fail especially if stored outside or sat for awhile, sometimes fail intermittently too. Make sure you wire it correct.

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    Senior Member mhager63's Avatar
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    This thread has been an interesting and informative read as I have an Ingersoll 648 with some current electrical issues. Recently I had a catastrophic hydraulic failure due to a leak / hole that developed in the line from hydraulic pump that supplies rear PTO which when it occurred drained my hydraulic tank and everything under the dash tower (as well as much of the underside of tractor) was sprayed with and soaked by Rotella 15-40. I repaired this leak issue with a temporary hydraulic re-route, but now onto my somewhat similar electric issue...

    The day after the leak and repair I now do not have anything when I turn key to start. When I turn key to run oil pressure light comes on and ampmeter shows a (-) discharge. When I turn key to lights they come on. When key is turned to start ammeter shows significant (-) discharge but nothing happens. No click, no nothing.

    I am using Ingersoll Electrical System Service Manual (Model 226, 446, 448, 646, 648) No. 9-51721and working through the trouble shooting chart - I. Engine will not crank

    A.1. - dead or weak battery - this is not the issue.
    A.2. - poor or open connection at solenoid, ampmeter, fuse, key switch or neutral start switches - I have inspected these. I found a loose connection on the ampmeter for the spade lead connecting to ignition switch and tightened this. I inspected the 2 neutral start switches which are covered with oil and difficult to reach but these are a mute point as they are in-line connected and NOT connected to the solenoid negative spade. These are by passed by a direct ground from the solenoid negative spade to the same battery negative ground on frame which was checked, cleansed and tightened. I checked in-line fuse and this is intact. All other related connections appear to be intact.
    B.1. - One or both neutral start switches open - mute point (see above)
    B.2. - fuse blown - mute point (see above)
    B.3. - Open Ampmeter - I disconnected leads to ampmeter and direct connected by-passing meter. No change when ignition turned to start position. Also meter is showing both negative discharge when ignition is in run and start positions and a (+) positive read when motor is running.
    B.4.- Open solenoid - What I am finding with solenoid is with ignition in run position if I "jump" the large/main solenoid posts the starter turns over and motor starts and runs.
    B.5. - Open ignition switch - I have not performed the recommended test (Connect jumper from battery positive to solenoid "+" small terminal or from B to S terminal on switch)

    C. Solenoid click but engine won't crank - I do not get any solenoid click
    C.1. - Engine tight - this is not an issue
    C.2. - Defective solenoid switch - when I jump large solenoid posts I get starter crank and motor starts
    C.3. - Defective or worn starter - No test recommended - Repair or replace. See starter motor section of manual. I have had some intermittent issues with starter remaining engaged cranking motor despite releasing the ignition switch from the start to run position (which has been relieved with quickly disconnecting one of the battery terminal connections)

    My best guess so far based on above is either a bad solenoid or bad ignition switch. As I'm replying I'm wondering about the starter not disengaging with release of ignition from start position and not getting any "click" at solenoid when ignition turned to start and if I have a bad ignition switch versus a bad solenoid. Thoughts / suggestions? Are either of these components readily available after-market at big box stores or should I follow up with replacements from Case - Ingersoll (i.e., Barneveld Implement (my usual go to) or other OEM source?)

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    Member 78_220's Avatar
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    I agree that your current diagnostics lead to a faulty switch (highly likely) or open solenoid, but no need to guess when you can test. Perform B5 from the steps you have posted. If the engine cranks the solenoid is intact. What this test will do is energize the pull-in winding internal to the solenoid which causes a plunger disc to contact the B+ to Starter lugs(internally). These were what you manually jumped externally in B4 when your engine started and ran. On a correctly functioning system the ignition switch start position sends power to the small B+ terminal on the solenoid and the click comes from the plunger disc making contact with the main lugs.

    For a switch I'd stick with one of the site vendors for an OEM switch. I haven't seen a suitable aftermarket one with the correct number of lugs and switch positions. In my area, most big box stores like Home Depot or Lowe's do not have solenoids on the shelf, so I'd be looking to support our site vendors if I was in your shoes.

    As for the starter staying engaged, this is generally caused by the starter gear binding on the helical shaft of the starter. These can gunk up over time and not return when the starter is deenergized. I usually spray some penetrating oil like PB Blaster on the shaft and manually move the gear back and forth to work it in until I know it is free.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by 78_220; 06-02-2020 at 11:10 PM.

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    Senior Member Dan444's Avatar
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    I didn’t see this until today. Based on reading the above, sounds like solenoid. if you can jump the solenoid pos and neg and start the engine, seems likely. Did you ever resolve?

    I am back to no spark situation after removing and reinstalling my engine. When I jump negative solenoid small post direct to ground as before, now the fuse pops. I noticed my coil is quite warm to the touch when trying various combinations with my voltmeter. I’m not in the habit of touching my coil randomly but think this should not be quite warm like this.

    I’m nearly out of fuses and would rather not keep guessing what’s wrong. I disconnected the battery in case coil damage was happening. Now I’m contemplating my next move. Is it ok to connect the battery and continue? Any suggestions where to start? Thanks.

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