Trying to understand pricing for High wheel Case/Ingersoll tractors
Hello CCI Forum :)
In my introduction post I mentioned that I currently do not own any tractors at the moment, nor have in the past, but am currently in the market. I have been doing a lot of research in the past month or so and seem to have a general idea of what these should be running but wanted to get some feedback from the real pros before purchasing.
So my questions are:
What are some key indicators I should review when trying to assess value?
I know condition is king but have read about the hour gauges being unreliable. So my assumption would be just overall inspection of the tractor, and then checking the engine condition. I see some people mention the engine sounding rough, but without ever having heard one can anyone describe the noise that would be abnormal? Or better yet if anyone has a YouTube or link to audio of a good running tractor I should be able to notice if its noticeably different.
What is the average price for a used but in good condition 446 or 448 or 4020; tractor only?
My assumption would be around 1000-1500$ depending on condition, with the 446 being lower on the scale and the 4020 being higher? I see a lot fall into these ranges but then see others listed at 4-5 thousand for what looks like the same machine. Am I missing something or are some people not really looking to sell? What I am needing is a tractor with deck and both in good condition (meaning it wont need major repair in the next few seasons).
Is power steering something I should be interested in?
I see some models have this available, what should this increase the cost of the tractor by? Does the power steering increase the risk of failure? I have read about the turning radius so understand that can be a downfall depending on production model.
How much should a mowing deck be valued at? 48" or 60"?
Beyond the price of the tractor I am going to need a mowing deck included with the purchase. My thoughts would be around $200 if the deck is in good usable condition. Would a 60" be worth more?
Should I try to purchase a complete tractor (Rear PTO, Tiller, etc) or buy one in good condition and add those pieces when the time comes?
My worry would be that these may become may scarce or increase in cost in the coming years, so not sure if it would be a better idea to look for a package deal now and store the attachments until needed or wait until I would need them and look for donor tractors which may include what I need.
While I am scouring the wanted ads, craigslist, and Facebook marketplace I do plan to create a WTB listing in the Buy/Sell/Trade/Wanted board incase a member has what I am looking. I did try scanning and searching the forums for pricing indicators but could not find anything recent, so I apologize if this has bee covered elsewhere (please link me if so). Thanks everyone!
there a lot of thing to consider age of unit, how well it runs, does it leak oil, does it have. a sleve hitch, 3 point hitch; and the location where your at or how far your willing to travel.
The power steering will SPOIL you; but a little getting use to in snow.
I live in South East Wis, and have traveled to Michigan for my 4120, 20 hp Onan and then to Indiana for Hydrolic snowblower.
I did purchase a home built one and it worked. I still have it but havent used it, Just made sure it worked. It did but one hose was shot, pulled off my tiller to test it out; works great.
My 446, has a 18 hp predator on it, and has a 3 point which I added after purchase for tilling as it lift higher; and easier to get on trailer.
I have a 226, 16 hp Onan that has a 38 in blower and 40 in deck. (can run 44 in deck)
I don't know if this will help but I thought I let you know how I feel.
Note I found all my units on Craiglist, but it change over the years, Need to be in right place at the right time.
Good luck and let us know what you come up with.
I would recommend that you contact Bill at Barneveled Imp. 608-924-1662, great guy for Information and they may be able to help you find what your looking for
If you're searching for machines or attachments, I've found that FB Marketplace is much better for those items. Seems to have a lot more options and I've had better success with it lately. With regard to values, I think you'd be spot on for the Michigan market. I bought my 448 with a mower and snowcaster for $1,500.00. As you have stated, leaks and appearance impact value. I should also add that I wouldn't be too concerned with sun fading. A lot of members here have commented that their 90's tractors faded despite being stored inside. Others might disagree, but I think you'll be mechanically happy with any machine that wasn't obviously abused. They're pretty tough and beyond scratches and blemishes, keep on going without missing a beat. LOL... a lot like their owners.
If you want more than a mower deck and snowcaster, package deals are harder to come by. You often get a discounted price, but that may mean you pass up on a lot of very nice tractors before you find your new ride. Either way, post pics of whatever you get. We love that stuff (and they all look almost the same ).
I had a demo 444 high wheel tractor for about 20+/- years. It had the Kohler engine in it. Great tractor! Then I bought a 224 to go with it, great tractor but low profile. Except being a low profile, essentially the same tractor with a few slightly different tweaks.
To the Onan tractors: I love them, they are quieter (twin cylinder) and smoother running. Don't run the oil low, then lean them side wise on a hill. Otherwise you should be fine. I have a 448 that is all there and runs well. I took it out of commission because after 30 years it was burning plenty of oil. I was going to overhaul the engine. 3 years later it hasn't moved.
You know how it goes: after I get the other 448 done I will have time to take care of this one. I restored a HS 448 and sold it in the meantime, I restored another 448 that I use. And I am about to finish a 4118 "All Hydraulic" unit. I have spent a lot of money and time on it and it is really starting to look good as it goes back together.
I have 48" decks and 60" decks for my 448 tractor. I like the bigger deck better than the small one, except when sucking leaves. My leaf Vac fits the 48" deck better, and haven't wanted to cut the chute on the 60" to get the boot to fit. If you aspire to a 60" deck, the 18 HP would be better than a 16 HP tractor. I have had 446's with the 60" decks and they handled the decks well, but in heavy grass/weeds the extra 2 HP from a 448 would be better suited for that deck.
Because all of my equipment was for LH throw tractors I hesitated to get a 4000 series tractor, but a few years back I bought a 3016 (RH throw). It had burned most of the wires off of itself. Sold the 3016 to someone after re-wiring and doing a dress up with some of the paint. Dodged that one, but then there was a 4020 that had burned most of the wires off of it and it only cost $600. After re-wiring it I was going to repaint it and generally go through it to have a real nice 4000 series for myself. It now has a 48" deck and a 60" deck and I am keeping this one.
My thoughts when I bought the 448's was to have 2 identical tractors that if one wasn't working i would have a tractor just like it that would run exactly the same equipment. I could have 446's and 448's and everything would interchange. The 444 and some of the 200 series would interchange somewhat equipment wise.
Location is everything, a basic 400 series and mower can sell for 500 to 800 depending on tractor in the mid west and same tractor bring 1600 to 2500 in southern New England. A basic 4000 series and mower same thing 1200 to 1500 depending on tractor etc in the mid west and 2200 to 3500 in our area. Same goes for attachments. Location is the biggest factor over condition, condition differentiates between tractors in a certain region. But what it comes down to is what you can get for your budget and be happy with what you gut and paid. This being said not saying you can not find tractors in any reason for more or less money but this is kind of the norm and to show the difference the location makes.
Last edited by ROCKLAND VALLEY; 10-09-2020 at 07:23 PM.
Now being in CA I have no idea of your market but I would say your prices would probably be more in line with New England prices but I think the tractors are far less popular and available in CA? Most every time you will get a better overall deal the more you buy in a package. Good luck and enjoy!
I see that you have star city as a location also? That’s about an hour and a half from me and I see tractors on Facebook market all the time. I paid 350 for my 444 and 1000 for my 448. Both needed a lot of work but the 448 has the 3 pt hitch, rear pto and a holding valve. My parts tractor 448 I got for 300 and it came with a sleeve hitch a plow, disc, and an extra motor. I also got a blade and deck for 200, so they are out there, you just have to spend some time looking
@gean444 - Thanks for the info! Yeah I am more than willing to travel but would prefer obviously to find something local. I had not really considered the power steering combined with snow, definitely something to consider. Was your 3-point you added to your 446 something you bought separate or pulled off a donor? My bigger issue is timing as I am only going to be on location for a week before having to return to the west coast, so I lose some of the real deal potential I'm sure. If I am headed up north I'll give Bill/Barnevold Imp a call but hopefully finding something local or less than a few hours from location. But I will definitely post what I get!
@Chaddo02 - Yeah FB marketplace seems to be the spot, but maybe we should be keeping that a secret? Haha. Sadly while in the past I have found many deals on Craigslist, the website generally seems to be filled with fake listings. I am looking in the Midwest area there so that might be why pricing lines up. Good to know about the sun fading, but yeah I agree the mechanics should more than likely tell the tale of what type of owner they have been. I will definitely post my first set of wheels and be officially part of the gang.
@Seabee - Being an Onan fan, have you ever used one of the Linamar engines? While looking around I saw a few of those and it seems they are the same part for part on some models, so does that mean the reliability would be the same? I would prefer getting the 60" deck, but will see how it goes. I completely understand getting absorbed in one after another and maybe losing sight of one as other projects line up. I was already planning what my second Case/Ingersoll would be!
@ROCKLAND VALLEY - You know I really didn't knew location played as big of a role, but that probably explains what can sometimes look like an extreme price difference. If the transit cost could be figured out people could be buying low and selling high haha. Yeah I would prefer to get a package deal if possible but it looks like those are harder to come by or are generally in worse condition as a group. My location for the tractor is in the Indiana, but your correct in your price assumptions and scarcity of units in the southern California area (plus I would need to transport).
@Moostang - Yes the location I need the tractor in is Star City, IN. Those sound like some good deals! I unfortunately need to buy something that doesn't require any repair or work primarily as I will not be on location for long enough to fix. Once I have my first one purchased however getting a donor that has all the extra parts I need would be ideal, that way they could be removed and reinstalled over time. Will keep my eyes peeled for sure, I am hoping to purchase late October (around the 25th).
OMHO there is no such thing as average price for these tractors unless you are referring to older high hour tractors. Yes that is an opinion. I have collected these tractors for 40+ years. At this point I have only searched for super low hour tractors. That's my deal, not right or wrong. I use a 4020PS with 90 original hours in as new mint condition for my home. That tractor is worth high dollars. I use a 4020PS with 360 hours that looks super excellent with rear hydraulics that I value at $3500. I use a 4020 with 275 hours w/rear hydro I use for sucking up leaves. All have 48" decks and my preferred Onan engines. I use a 4118D as my utility tractor for plowing, tilling and log splitting w/275 hours like new. (I no longer change attachments - just tractors.
I have read for years the strong opinions of those regarding the price of these tractors. Some only purchase when they find a "steal" of a deal. You generally get what you pay for. Do you want a rebuild job? Are you mechanically inclined? Is cosmetics important for you? Do you want to travel outside your area? Are you comfortable with a high hour tractors? What is the intended use? I live in NW Wis and have traveled to Ohio, Michigan and have had one shipped from MA! Do you have a budget? Do you want to start a collection hobby or just own a good tractor?
My favorite tractor is my Ingersoll 448 I bought brand new in 1987. I rebuilt everything in 2001. I use it with a S84 snowcaster with a custom cab I leave set up all year. I would pretty much spend anything to keep that tractor in top shape. I also own four additional 4118D tractors I restored and have so much $ in them they are my show only hobby tractors. And every once in a while I take out my 4525K Ingersoll proto-type for a spin around the yard. (photo in this web site intro). In the last five years I have sold off nine 4118d tractors in my attempt to deal with my Power Red addiction.
My 2 cents for an all around tractor? Buy the nicest 4000 series with or with out PS in the best condition with the lowest hours you can find and worry about the price later. Good luck.
@bison2500 - I guess I was thinking what ranges should I be looking in to know if its a good deal, a straight deal, or a bad deal. Completely agree its hard to set an average with so many factors, but the insights I have gotten have been great. 90 original hours sounds insane, so I am sure that is high dollar! The value on the 4020PS seems about right as I have seen one without PS being offered by Jason Geurink (I think he is also a member here?).
To give a bit of background what I am looking for is more in the "good tractor" category although once I am on site full time my hobby collection will start, but that will be a few years. Ideally I am looking for a high quality machine that is not going to require high level repair for at least a few seasons, preferably long enough until I would be able to attend to it. It's primary purpose for the 2-3 years it will be on site will be mowing and yard maintenance. Once we have relocated to the homestead then we would be using the tractor (which may require adding parts or potentially buying another) to do the plowing, tilling, and snowblowing. Hoping to find something in the $1500-2500 range.
Two stage are nice if you have the power for it AND the fan is big enough. Most walk behinds, and GT sized ones the fan and chute are too small and slush chokes up in it, but are cheaper to make and...