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Tiller talk

7K views 25 replies 17 participants last post by  Chaddo02 
#1 ·
I’ve been checking into getting me a tiller for my 444. I don’t have a holding valve, also don’t have front or rear weights. I’m assuming front weight is really mandatory for safety? Holding valve or rears reallly needed?
 
#2 ·
Hi dan444

I don't know about front weights, but I have wheel weight and tires are full of washerfluid, I have a holding valve, but what you really want is a flow-control valve, so you can controll the speed of tractor. I fell it made the biggest difference: for what it worth.

gean444
 
#3 ·
Lots of opinions will come through on this.

I definitely like front weight when the tiller is lifted. It doesn't matter when the tiller is in the ground. Front weight could be a simple as 25-40 lbs suspended off the front of the chassis ... it does not take much. Full on 150 lb kits are great, but not really necessary. Helps both steering control and the likelihood of unhappy wheelies.

The tilling I've done without holding valves did indeed result in the tiller pushing the tractor.

I would prioritize a holding valve, then try it out.

If you are not able to control the tractor comfortably (I think most users are OK with this), then consider stepping up to include a flow control valve, which really allows you to 'set and forget' the travel speed at very low speeds, or fine tune it steadily along the way.

Sort of depends I suppose on how much you are doing. A 20x40 plot would be a whole lot different than an acre. I use the 4223 or 7020 for tilling, which are both super easy to modulate with the foot pedal control. But if I was using a 400/4000 and doing a lot of space, I would be looking for the flow control to ease the burden of constantly tweaking the travel control.
Brian
 
#4 ·
I have both a 448 and a 646 and use the 646 for tilling exclusively. The foot control travel is much easier to use than the hand travel as when you are tilling hard packed ground you need a hand free for adjusting tiller height and speed on the fly. Some weight on the front end is definately required or you will be doing wheel stands, the tillers are very heavy
 
#5 · (Edited)
Dan,

As Gean said you want a flow control valve. That said I have done a lot of tilling with my 224-78 without a flow control valve. But there is a lot of fiddling with the travel control lever to try and maintain a steady speed.

I got by for a long time without the front weights, the biggest issue was needing a lighter touch on the travel lever to keep from pulling wheelies.

:cheers:
Gordy
 
#6 ·
Hmmm hmmmm and hmmm again. I would like have a flow control and holding valve. Neither of these items seem to be readily available. Rear weights seem to be available, but in 100lbs per side locally at least. I’ve been thinking about how to get weight on the front. A weight box is ideal but I also don’t see those for sale. Haven’t come up with a great idea yet.

Thanks everyone for the advice and keep it coming. In the meantime, I’ve got to get my Troy built horse going. Next project I guess.
 
#8 ·
Hmmm hmmmm and hmmm again. I would like have a flow control and holding valve. Neither of these items seem to be readily available. Rear weights seem to be available, but in 100lbs per side locally at least. I've been thinking about how to get weight on the front. A weight box is ideal but I also don't see those for sale. Haven't come up with a great idea yet.

Thanks everyone for the advice and keep it coming. In the meantime, I've got to get my Troy built horse going. Next project I guess.
There are a number of past posts about front weight. I had 3 JD 40 pound suitcase and an old mule I modified to hold the weights. Others have done similar with old barbell weights, or made a box.

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:cheers:
Gordy
 
#7 ·
Don't let perfect be the enemy of getting things done. I've tilled both with my old 220 and with my 446, didn't have any extra weight in the back or front. Our garden is small, about 36x30ft. First of all, I did not till with the tines going backward, so no wheelies. The 220 seemed a little underpowered, but I went extra slowly, also because I really wanted to till as deep as possible, being the first time to till our garden, so the sleeve hitch was down to the max. Mind you, I did turn the soil over with the Brinly plow first. Going slow, inch at at time, and deep, got the soil finely tilled and mixed in manure, and IMHO in great shape for the garden. At first I had turf tires, which did not work! Subsequently I installed AG tires and it was much better.

I have to say that it was a little easier with the 446, especially after I got AG tires for it. But still, I always go with the Brinly moldboard plow first, then tiller tines going forward, deep and slow. I've seen videos on youtube with some dudes tilling pretty fast with their magical new diesel JDs, on dry, unplowed ground. My tilling was nothing like that, but I got the garden in great shape for planting.

I now have weights, and ag tires on the 446, and will most likely use them in the spring, but I'd say if you want a garden, just do it, the things you're missing are not show stoppers and in time you'll get them.
 
#10 ·
Dan - Excellent advice from everyone. I discovered that I needed front weights just so I could steer and turn, especially with the tiller raised. Here's what I ended up with, but I had help from my son who fabricated the front weight bracket to hold up to four 40 pound JD Suitcase Weights. Sometimes I have used rear wheel weights if they were still on after the winter, but usually not.
Bob
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#11 ·
I’m not familiar with the way pto/3 point works. I have an old three point and pto I’m going to get going on once the weather warms. I am kind of waiting til a tiller comes my way also.

Is the normal lift lever that’s used for raising deck and caster used to raise and lower tiller or other pto attachments? Seems it must be.

I do do have a spare mule gear actually that came with my project 444. (Which by the way starts runs and no longer leaks oil!!)
 
#13 ·
Barnevelt implement has weight boxes. I bought one from them along with the front mule drive mount. The box comes with an angle iron bracket to mount on the rear of tractor but that won’t work with a tiller attached. Keep an eye out for used boxes. I picked one up for $50 box alone. Attached it to my mule drive mount and now have front and rear weight if necessary.

For rear wheel weights I have the plastic you fill with sand. If doing it again, I would like to buy a set of JD H78062 wheel weights. Much heavier.
 
#14 ·
My first time rototilling was with a 4016 Vanguard, 40 inch tiller and turf tires (front and rear), so it can be done, but not easily. I did not have wheel weights, front weights or flow control. It was on level ground that had been plowed with a Brinly 12 inch plow. It was a 40 x 80 new garden with lots of room at the ends for maneuvering. It was over bamboo roots at one end (FYI - do not ever offer to till those if someone asks you to).

I was able to do the tilling with much finessing of the TCV. There were a number of wheelies which were managed by not lifting the tiller all the way up. With a light front end, steering is difficult. The tiller pushed the tractor forward when running the tiller in forward rotation, so I just barely had the TCV in forward and the tiller would push it along. There are some members who run the tiller in reverse and then use the TCV to move the tractor forward; I tried that and it was less satisfactory as the turf tires would spin in the loose or hard dirt.

FRONT WEIGHTS:
IMHO, the first priority would be to get weight on the front end to minimize the pucker factor (wheelies) and help with steering. Seems to me someone could put up with fussing the levers for depth and travel if needed for a while.

Today, for front weights, I have this bumper and hang 42lb suitcase weights off of it painted lobster red.

https://casecoltingersoll.com/showt...48363-front-bumper?highlight=bumper+barneveld

Safety tip: I used to transport the tractor and tiller on a tilt snowmobile trailer. The front weights were critical for loading/unloading as the front came up if the front weights were not on.
If I forgot to put the front weights on the tiller kept it from going over.....:shock: that's how evenly balanced the unit is. The Vanguards are lighter than the Onans.

FLOW CONTROL:
Are a dream to till with as you can "set it and forget it" - just like cruise control. They work well when snow blowing too. That said, tilling can be done without it.
In lieu of a flow control (until and if one can be located), tightening up the TCV linkage would be of help. At minimum replacing the link; even better to install the complete linkage replacement kit that is out there (Hemlock Case Guy I think - see ebay link)- it makes a world of difference but is a PITA to install.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Case-Inger...328621?hash=item3da53e4ced:g:TO0AAOSwYb9c4zLw

AG TIRES
Are helpful as they minimize spinning and help keep the ground evenly tilled as spinning can leave ruts which the have to be smoothed over. Seems to me chains on turfs would help, but I have not tried that.

REAR WHEEL WEIGHTS:
Are helpful for same reason as ags, but IMHO not absolutely necessary as the tiller will push the tractor along. They would be lower on my priority list.

IDEAL SETUP:
Front weights; Ag tires; Flow control; Rear wheel weights.

Hope this long dissertation is of some help. Again, this is my experience and opinion - your mileage may vary.

With Respect, Willy
 
#16 · (Edited)
In about 1979 or 1980 I bought a 444 Demonstrator from the Case dealer with a 48" deck and a 41" tiller. I had no weight, no holding valve (didn't know they made such a thing until a lot later), no slow down valve. And I had turf tires for the back.

Heck I was going all over the place tilling for our friends. The tiller would push the tractor, but being willing to pull the travel lever backward occasionally worked fairly well. Most of the soil was clay loam soil. After learning who the neighboring farmers were, I had the guy farming up against us plow my garden with his 5 16 plow, and I then would knock it down with my tiller.

I never had any lift problems at the end when I got ready to turn around. I just lifted it up and did what I needed to do. In 1989 I moved to Michigan and didn't have any farmers living next to me. I had to break the sod for myself, again! Probably about mid 90's I bought a 448, still didn't have any weight, and got along well.

I joined the site in 2013 as you can see, and found out I needed front end weight, and a slow down valve for sure. About 2015 I bought a junk 446 with Case plastic weights, one for each rear wheel. Put them on my 448 and they made a nice difference for snow plowing and tilling. In 2017 I happened upon a K41 tiller. Wasn't sure I even wanted it because I had been happy with my center drive Case tiller for 35+ years. So I put the K41 on my other 448 I had just renewed. Man was that sucker heavy! It wanted to twist my sleeve hitch counter clockwise to the left when it wasn't in the ground. Had to be a bit more careful when lifting it on the ends. Still no front weights.

I should explain while I was a kid my dad was a bit tight with his money and bought a new Case 830 tractor with a 5 16 semi mounted plow behind it. Tires filled and a weight or 2 on each rear wheel. No further weight on the tractor, except the semi mounted plow on the hitch. The home farm was sandy, and as we moved to Cass County, Indiana the soils turned to heavy clay. The plows didn't pull nearly as easy. As my younger brother and I got into high school we played around with anything going on. On the one farm, the south end of a half mile long pull was a state highway running perpendicular to the direction we were going. If you just yanked on the hydraulic lever to lift the plow the front end would come off the ground momentarily. That was kind of cool! This farm also had very heavy soils, so if you lifted carefully on the lever you could keep the plow in the ground and carry the front end about as far as you wanted.

That ability to keep the front end in the air led to us carrying the front almost to the highway several times. As we got close to the road there were a few times the people in the cars got a bit nervous.

So the front lift issue was never an issue for my tiller. I will say with the extra weight of the K41 tiller, it wanted to dance a bit more. When I renewed the 448, one of my goals was to put beet juice in the front and rear tires. The second year I had the K41, the 448 had that extra weight (120# each rear, 20# each front). The front end can still get a bit light but does just fine. On the Snow Blower it makes the front more controllable on the ice.

So my story is that for a bout 35+ years with the center drive, I never had any of that stuff and got along just fine. Now that I have the heavier tiller and I have the extra weight, I like that just fine! To each their own!!

Bill
 
#22 ·
I've been checking into getting me a tiller for my 444. I don't have a holding valve, also don't have front or rear weights. I'm assuming front weight is really mandatory for safety? Holding valve or rears reallly needed?
Hi, I have a 448 I got from my in-laws estate. The tiller works much better than my same vintage Ford 16hp diesel. Anyway, I definitely recommend the front weights like the others have said. I put them on at first to help with the front end steering (new tires after 30 years helped too) but also glad now as it did help against those occasional wheelies others have mentioned. I don't know how my father-in-law did without them all these years. There were some other posts on this site that have helped me with those weight alternatives. I just mounted several old bar-bell weights on a bolt. I have a mount (some call it a mule) from the mower and blade that I might use down the road.

This post has got me thinking now as to what kind of valve controller I have. I just thought it was called a travel control. Mine is the hand lever my the steering column. I don't think I have to, but I do hold on to it as I go through the garden. Good luck. You'll like the tiller.
 
#24 ·
Dan
We spoke about a homemade front weightbox and you asked for some pictures. It was very cheap. The idea came from a cousin of mine to mount an old toolbox on the front filled with concrete. I used some hardware I had laying around for structural support on the inside before I poured the concrete in. I mounted it to a quick connect plate on the front of the tractor I had laying around. The 4x4 piece of lumber is a temporary spacer so the hood can still open with the box mounted. I used almost a whole bag of fast setting quick Crete. I left the top open so I can still store a few hand tools in the tray. I put in a handful of food plots in for friends in the spring and summer and it is always nice to have some tools on board if something goes wrong! The pipe coming out the front is from the previous set up I had used making weights with a bag of quick Crete, a five gallon bucket, and a piece of pvc. Hope this helps!

Jason
 

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#26 ·
It is a little unsettling when you're headed out to till for the first time and your 448 pops a wheelie for the first time. Almost spilled my drink. LOL. In case anyone is in the market, I have a tiller with new hoses and good bearings for sale. Hit me up if interested in the Michigan area. That said, I definitely think front weights are mandatory for safety purposes if you are going to till with any sort of incline.
 
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