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4018 Kills Engine When PTO Clutch Is Engaged

6K views 19 replies 6 participants last post by  gman28 
#1 ·
I have an Ingersoll 4018, Serial Number: 17194696, Briggs & Stratton 18 hp V-Twin Vanguard Engine. Engine Model: 350447, Type:1111-E1, Code: 0403104.

I've been trying to get my tractor back in top running order. I recently adjusted the valves, installed new Briggs & Stratton plugs, removed the gas tank, and installed new fuel filter and lines.

A local shop suggested that I try PB Blaster Tuneup. He claimed that this product would help remove carbon buildup on the cylinders. I tried it today and it worked wonders.

My issue is every time I turn the PTO deck switch on, it will kill the engine instantaneously. I can turn the blades by hand and they move freely. I'm puzzled as to why the engine dies when the deck is turned on.

Looking forward to all suggestions!

gman
 
#3 ·
Agree with Dave -
First - is the travel control lever in neutral?
Are you sitting in the seat when you try to engage the PTO?
If so, then start with the seat safety switch.

Here are the manuals:

https://casecoltingersoll.com/showthread.php/11096-Ingersoll-3000-3100-4000-4100-6000-and-7000-Models

Page 27 of manual 8-61220 has the electrical diagram for what I think is your tractor. The upper right corner shows the seat safety switch, the upper left shows the neutral start switch.

Best of luck, Willy
 
#4 ·
Agree.

Could also be the actual PTO switch, which also contains safety switch circuits. This is a commonly replaced switch (much more than the seat), which you might consider simply replacing it as a maintenance item, also.

https://salempwr.com/c31937-switch/

For the seat switch you will need to look at it to determine the type used. On some models there is a switch within the base of the seat itself and on others there is a push button interacting with the seat hinge plate. (Earlier builds would have been a lever arm style proximity switch)

For your late production tractor, we find these type seat switches to be very reliable and so I more suspect your PTO switch, without further detail in hand.

Brian
 
#5 ·
Bit of a ramble and then a simple diagnostic.

I know some people like to complain about safety items, the cost and complexity they bring but the 70 yr. old tractor in my avatar, had a neutral start system and so did it's 11 yr. older brother. There may have been models that had them before that (1939) too.

I put the seat switch, in very nearly the same category of obvious need. A low hanging limb, a stroke, or heart attack ... If I come out of that seat, I WANT that thing to stop. I kinda doubt they could go through a chain link fence but I've seen plenty of board fences that wouldn't hold them. And they'd cross any swale too. It'd take a proper ditch to stop them. On the thousand series, we're talking almost 700 lbs. - to over 800, just for the naked tractors, then we add 100+ for a deck or blade and some add hundreds more for auxiliary weight.

Lecture over, to test the seat switch, of which ever type, unplug it and install a jumper between the connectors it was plugged into. If your problem goes away, as they say, theres your sign. If not, as Brian advises, PTO switches do go bad. It could also be your clutch but as that is considerably more expensive, it makes sense to diagnose the cheaper items first.
 
#6 ·
4018 KillsEngineWhen PTO Clutch Is Engaged

I want to thank Maine Willy, Brian, and Dave for their input. I went out and started the tractor today. Let her warm up for 10 minutes and while sitting in the seat, turned the PTO switch on. The engine died immediately.

Back in May of this year, see Thread: Ingersoll 4018 Safety Question, I posted trying to solve my issues. I replaced the solenoid, neutral safety switches, the dash bulbs, and tested the seat safety switch, which was good.

I could not determine why you cannot sit in the seat and start the tractor. You would have to either be standing on the ground or siting on the fender and turning the key, which is the opposite of a normal procedure.

I have the Delta System Model 6520 round seat switch in my machine. I removed the switch and it tested good with my voltmeter.

I took off the belt from the motor to the deck, turned the PTO switch on, and it worked like it should. Could there be a bad wire that melted or shorted out that is causing my issues?

gman
 
#7 ·
"I could not determine why you cannot sit in the seat and start the tractor. You would have to either be standing on the ground or siting on the fender and turning the key, which is the opposite of a normal procedure."

I've heard of safety switches failing always on, or always off but I've never heard of them failing in reverse.
 
#8 ·
4018 KillsEngineWhen PTO Clutch Is Engaged



I purchased this tractor 10 years ago and until this year, she has been, for the most part, trouble free. I can't explain why you can't sit in the seat to start her unless one of the wires fried or shorted the on/off switch.

I just removed the motor to the deck belt. With the engine running and sitting in the seat, I turned the PTO switch on. The clutch was spinning and the engine didn't die. I decided to get off the seat with the PTO on and engine still running, and the engine started to shut down. I believe this simple test shows that the seat safety switch works.

Tomorrow I'll inspect the deck to see if there is something preventing the belt from rotating with the deck. That still leaves the problem of what's causing the tractor not to start when sitting in the seat.

Any member have any ideas why you can't sit in the seat to start the tractor?

gman
 
#9 ·
OK - This us a long shot - is it possible there is a wire shorted to the frame by the lower right side of the engine where the harness goes up to the PTO? (there is a jumble of wires there as I recall - mine were ziptied together and the PTO wire emerges and runs along the frame and up to the PTO). When you removed the belt, perhaps you bumped the wire enough to move it away from the frame so things worked as they should?

Years ago mine stopped dead from a headlight wire that touched the frame in that area and blew the fuse located by the key switch.

Willy
 
#11 ·
4018 KillsEngineWhen PTO Clutch Is Engaged

OK - This us a long shot - is it possible there is a wire shorted to the frame by the lower right side of the engine where the harness goes up to the PTO?

Willy,

I took a look at the wiring like you suggested. The wires are heavily protected with a plastic tubing and electric tape. I had my assistant turn the PTO switch on and off with the engine running and gave it a wiggle test and it passed. No loose wire from what I observed.

John
 
#12 ·
I read your post and I have several questions. Like you, my electrical skills are definitely not my strong suit. I removed the tower panel and like you mentioned, I found the rear chassis wire harness.

It had a sticker on the lower half of the harness going to the rear of the tractor. I assume the wiring goes to the seat safety switch and the tail lights. My tractor doesn't have a rear PTO system, but the wires are there for any future upgrade.

Here is what was on the lower half of the sticker/label:

C48003
9105034
REV-C14419-1
Sept. 2003

I'm hoping you or one of the parts dealers can interpret this label and provide a link to the correct wiring diagram.

Your post lost me on how you determine which wire to jump. Did you take the harness halves apart and place a wire into both halves until you found the correct wire going to the PTO?

The next step you took was to just reconnect the harness and everything worked. Could you expand the steps a bit for me?

My harness has accumulated a lot of crud over the years. The pump tubing burst a few times and leaves, grass clippings love to stick to it. I tried to separate the harness but she refused to come apart. So, I stopped. I clean this area out with compressed air from time to time.

John
 
#19 · (Edited)
Your post lost me on how you determine which wire to jump. Did you take the harness halves apart and place a wire into both halves until you found the correct wire going to the PTO?
My tractor is a 1989 3016 with original Onan engine, so I'm not certain the similarities of the electrical harness to your Vanguard powered tractor.

What I can tell you is my extension harness has two wires, so it was pretty easy to jump the right circuit. I would suggest you disconnect the harness, give it a thorough inspection and cleaning, and then start jumping the wires to determine which circuit runs the PTO clutch. Short or any other viable suggestions I believe your problem may very well be in the harness. Here is a photo I took of mine at the time, it was a pretty simple procedure.....

On another note, I ran across the same issue on a 1989 4016 as well. That turned out to be electrical in nature also. The previous owner jumped the seat safety switch to bypass it. I returned it to it's original operating function and that solved the PTO issue for that tractor. Point being, I believe you problem is in the electrical harness someplace.
 

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#13 ·
Yesterday, I examined my deck, thinking that the reason the PTO switch is killing the engine when turned on is that it has a bearing issue. That was not the case. The drive pulley turned freely by hand with all three blades spinning with little effort.

I then turned my attention to the idler pulleys. The left pulley spinned freely and the right pulley had a slight drag on it. Since the tractor still has the deck mounted, I will reexamine it once I remove the deck assembly for the front snow blade. I want to keep the deck on until the PTO switch issue is solved. Could the engine deck belt be contributing to the problem?

My biggest surprise of the day was when I went to install the air filter & cover. The engine immediately started to run rough. I then removed the filter and air cover, and she immediately ran smooth. Anybody have an idea why this happened and how to fix it? A new air filter was installed this Spring.

John
 
#14 ·
My biggest surprise of the day was when I went to install the air filter & cover. The engine immediately started to run rough. I then removed the filter and air cover, and she immediately ran smooth. Anybody have an idea why this happened and how to fix it? A new air filter was installed this Spring.

John
I don't recall, Did you adjust the carb? That needs to be done with the air filter inplace. If not it will run rich because of the resistance to airflow the filter induces.

:cheers:
Gordy
 
#15 ·
Did you adjust the carb? That needs to be done with the air filter inplace. If not it will run rich because of the resistance to airflow the filter induces.

Gordy,

No, I didn't adjust the carb. I don't know how to do it. I would love to take it to someone near me in Oak Forest, IL who knows Ingersoll 4018 Vanguard engines to do the job.

I don't know which carb is on my 4018 to even order the correct gaskets or gasket repair kit. I don't know which screw to adjust to correct a rich condition. Do you turn the adj screw clockwise for rich and counter clockwise for a lean condition? Where do you find the carb model stamped on the carb? I didn't see any marking on front or sides of the unit, unless it's on the back side, which would be difficult to see unless you remove it from the tractor.

What puzzles me is that with the lower part of the air filter housing bolted to top of the carb, I can't see how you would get at the adjustment screws if it's on the side of the carb without removing the bottom air housing tin.

Could someone provide a step by step procedure to adjust the carb? Also, I need an Ingersoll 4018 Carb parts PDF file. The one I have shows 3012, 3014, 3016, and 4016 parts catalog 83112.

John
 
#16 ·
Adjusting the carb won't fix your electrical problem and the tech library has all kinds of goodies.

Like this,

https://manuals.casecoltingersoll.c...anguard Engine Manual 272144_watermarked.pdf

The Ingersoll manual won't do you any good on this. Probably better off going straight to Briggs. The engine #s are everything.

https://www.vanguardpower.com/eu/en_gb/support/operators-manuals.html#

Ought to look at this while you're at it but again, it won't fix your elec. prob.

https://casecoltingersoll.com/showthread.php/91697-Vanguard-carb-and-governor-adjustments
 
#17 ·
4018 KillsEngineWhen PTO Clutch Is Engaged

Adjusting the carb won't fix your electrical problem...

Dave,

Your correct that adjusting the carb won't fix the electrical problem on my tractor. But during the troubleshooting process, I discovered the following:

I just removed the motor to the deck belt. With the engine running and sitting in the seat, I turned the PTO switch on. The clutch was spinning and the engine didn't die. I decided to get off the seat with the PTO on and engine still running, and the engine started to shut down. I believe this simple test shows that the seat safety switch works. As Maine Willy pointed out that he had a loose wire near the cluster or wires near the starter.

I had my assistant turn the PTO switch on with the engine running and gave these wires a wiggle test to see if the PTO would skip a beat and turn off or pause. It did not. No loose wires from what I observed.

With winter fast approaching the Chicagoland area and I need to remove the deck over to the front blade for snow removal. I decided to put the carb filter and housing back on with the deck belt off and take it for a test drive. That is when the carb issue pop up when I reassemble the air filter housing she was running rough. I then removed the filter and the engine smooth out. That's when another member said I was running to rich.

I don't like jumping around, but I need the tractor for winter snow duties. I'm hoping that I can solve the PTO mess come spring for grass cutting season. I don't know what else to test regarding the PTO mess. I still have the deck on and could replace the old belt with a new belt and see what happens. Do you think changing the belt could be part of the problem of why the PTO will not spin under a load?

John
 
#18 ·
"Do you think changing the belt could be part of the problem of why the PTO will not spin under a load?"

You have gremlins, so I'm reluctant to say but no, I don't think so. The clutch is a sturdily built thing. If the belt was too tight, so much so to pull the PTO somehow enough to cause a failure, I doubt you'd be able to loosen the idler enough to get it on.

As for the carb, you're about to discover what I had to recently learn. VG carbs are very tough to properly adjust with the engine in the tractor. In the thread I linked, Bob gave some tips and I don't know a soul who knows more about them than him.
 
#20 ·
Sometimes a solution is right in front of you. I was getting ready to switch my 4018 over to the front blade for snow removal duties when I kept on thinking, why doesn't the PTO engage the deck under load, yet the PTO will spin all day with the belt removed?

I decided to loosen both nuts on the idler pulleys 1/8 of a turn. I put the belt back on, started the engine, let it warm up, turned on the PTO clutch, and the deck turned on and worked.

I drove her around our 2 acre plot just to shred any leaves laying around to give the tractor a good workout. I stopped periodically, turning it off and restarting to make sure I solved the problem.

I noticed one peculiarity when trying to restart the engine. With a warm engine I had to play with the choke to get it to restart. In the past, just turning the key with a warm engine she would fire right up with no choke. Not sure what has to be adjusted to solve this issue.

John
 
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